Dramatic question

[kenaz]

So.... is it better to kill off the completely inconvenient wife who is only evident in canon because her son wasn't hatched from an egg, or have her Go West, somewhat petulantly? Trying to not to entirely demonizing a non-character, while also not wanting to be overly sympathetic, and leave slashy husband some leeway for technical infidelity without making him a total cad.

Talk amongst yourselves.

File under: #fanficproblems; #loomingdeadlines; #ohshitnotdoneyet

Comments

[ysilme]

Killing them always sounds a bit like the easy way out, but then, sending them West feels not so much better (from the easy way out point of view). I'd do the latter, if I had to choose between the two, perhaps even letting her going for ailing/sick parents or sibling or something else which will take her down a bit on the sympathy level or so. I don't suppose it would be an option to have her go the same way first, as in finding a women she prefers to be with, and either following her to the West, or somewhere else? I'm not sure I fully understand how you mean the part about the leeway.

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

I was leaning toward West-- that is how it is drafted, but then I was having second thoughts.

The scope of the story is fairly limited, and she doesn't actually appear in it. But her obvious absence needs some sort of explanation. Since the characters are pretty angsty to begin with, I think death or departure are more likely than marriage-of-convenience. (In fact, if I took the marriage-of-convenience route, I probably wouldn't even have a story, because everyone would just be frolicking away with their partner behind closed doors while publicly being appropriately married!)

Essentially, I'm seeking justification for infidelity. As a rule, I don't break up canon couples in my fanfic (though I've written people in canonical couples with others *before* the canonical relationship, e.g. Elrond and Gil-galad)... but this one is a grey area because the spouse never actually appears anywhere. But I feel like just having the character wantonly cheating while his wife is dead or in Valinor makes him a jerk-- because ultimately, he's still married unless he gets some sort of special dispensation from the Valar a la Míriel Serindë! I guess that's why I need her to be slightly unsympathetic-- so that her husband doesn't seem like a complete ass for having a moment of weakness with someone else.

[ysilme]

because everyone would just be frolicking away with their partner behind closed doors while publicly being appropriately married!)
*g*

I also prefer to leave canon couples as they are, or write a relationship into another time, like before or after the actual or supposed canon relationship. My personal solution might look like the easy way out, which is a same-sex relationship being also morally well possible despite a het marriage or relationship (could be also threesome or poly, but not necessarily so, particularly not when the het partner is not present for whatever reason), provided the first partner is consensual. Since this leans toward my personal preferences, it's not an easy way out for me, although I well understand it might be for other people.
For your couple, I see the desire to make the wife less sympathetic; I would feel the same. I also think this would work in this situation. Like if he was kind of left behind deliberately, and probably needs to fear that their marriage might not just easily be rekindled once they meet again in the West, who would begrudge him some comfort and company until then?

(On a side note, I find the concept rather difficult to wrap my mind around, that an elf whose partner has left for the West, for whatever rightful reason, might be expected to be alone for yéni until they meet again. Sounds as illogical and impossible to live through to me as the whole part about elven sex in That Document.... ;o) )

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

LOL! I have always regarded LaCE as an anthropological study by the grad student Aelfwine about a race he didn't understand, and he misinterpreted a lot of what they told him, but he needed to finish his thesis, so he just handed it in and faked the footnotes. ;)

[ysilme]

Haha, perfect solution! :D

[aglarien1.livejournal.com]

Ha! Love it.

[pandemonium-213.livejournal.com]

I guess that's why I need her to be slightly unsympathetic-- so that her husband doesn't seem like a complete ass for having a moment of weakness with someone else.

Errrrrr...being frank here, I've never favored the slash trope that makes the inconvenient wife into an unsympathetic shrew or mope. Rather, how about a flawed woman — even a relatable one — who has a spectrum of characteristics, good and bad? Same goes for her straying husband. I love flawed characters who still can spark sympathy with the reader. Could your character's moment of weakness be simply because he has human desire — a strong chemistry as it were — for the other dude, so powerful that he justifies his straying to himself or hell, just lets the testosterone take charge?

I do like the idea of a political marriage that isn't exactly a bed of roses, plus your examples of Non-Ideal Elven Behavior™ in reply to jaiden are PERFECT! :^D

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

I think I've managed to do her justice-- I hope I don't come across as a writer who creates shrews and mopes, or assassinates characters as a storytelling shortcut-- but it's tough to balance in a really short story when an absent character is potent mainly *because* she is absent. It's already becoming an expository info dump, which is problematic enough in itself. I may have painted myself into a corner, but so be it. I'm both mediocre and extremely rusty, so I'm working with what I've got.

[pandemonium-213.livejournal.com]

I hope I don't come across as a writer who creates shrews and mopes, or assassinates characters as a storytelling shortcut...

Be assured that you do not come across as a writer who does this. Ever. I've encountered it from no one I really know during my first forays into Library of Moria back in the day. I'm confident you'll write a fine short story, rusty or not! It's great that you're writing again!

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

OMG IT'S HARD!!!! I don't remember it being this hard!!! *shakes tiny dino fists of fury*

[jaiden-s.livejournal.com]

She should flounce West in a snit.

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

That's how I originally wrote it, but I've been second-guessing myself. I just don't want to make her *too* dislikeable, because her son's such a good egg that she must have had *SOME* redeeming qualities.

I totally don't buy the idea that the Elves were so freakin' pure that they didn't make occasional bad marriages for the sake of politics. Does that mean they're stuck in shitty marriages until the end of time?? I mean, Curufin was ready to "kidnap" (and I am SO reading between THOSE lines!) Luthien for the sake of personal gain... Aradhel's marriage was questionable...Fingolfin straight-up blows off his wife and takes the kids to go romping in M-E, leaving him and three of the kids dead and turning one of them into a noble gas (sorry, lame joke) and his wife back in Valinor going WTF?! The Elves pulled some Dick Moves.

So, yeah, I guess I'm leaning toward political marriage goes badly, and I want to believe they can get an Elvish Divorce once they're all back in Valinor.

[ysilme]

I totally don't buy the idea that the Elves were so freakin' pure that they didn't make occasional bad marriages for the sake of politics. Does that mean they're stuck in shitty marriages until the end of time?? I mean, Curufin was ready to "kidnap" (and I am SO reading between THOSE lines!) Luthien for the sake of personal gain... Aradhel's marriage was questionable...Fingolfin straight-up blows off his wife and takes the kids to go romping in M-E, leaving him and three of the kids dead and turning one of them into a noble gas (sorry, lame joke) and his wife back in Valinor going WTF?! The Elves pulled some Dick Moves.
This is totally awesome. :D

[lenine2.livejournal.com]

Yes.

[duck113.livejournal.com]

if he intends never to go West- to stay permanently in Arda, then either her being in Mandos halls or having sailed would mean him looking at spending eternity alone. I think faced with that prospect anyone would consider a relationship-

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

Thank you! The prospect of all that time alone seems cruel!

[talullahred.livejournal.com]

Ship the bitch! lol, sorry, I just had to say that.

I agree that both dying and sailing can seem cop outs but not too much, if they are done well. Let's not forget that ME is a violent place and many a good elf idolized Aman as the land of milk and honey. That with a husband she cannot stand (even if it's by her own bitter/angry/whatever personality) and it can work like a charm.

Good to know you're writing again!!!

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

Lol!

It's kind of a disaster. I have no idea what I'm doing. There have been tears.

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

Separation always struck me as the simplest, because neither death nor crossing the sea seems to end elven marriage in and of itself (which in some cases might have been damn annoying). I guess if it was a political match and they found they had nothing in common and went on to lead separate lives, he might want to be discreet about seeing someone else - public respect for the mother of his son, something like that?

As for LaCE, I think a whole bunch of First Age elves never read the rule book. It's a bit like a very pious and devout Christian presenting a visiting alien with a copy of the 10 Commandments and saying 'These are our rules and we all obey them'. Yeah, right.

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

I think it definitely has to be separation-- willing, I think, in this case. Death feels too pat and dramatic-for-drama's-sake in the context of this story, and I think also makes the specific relationship between these two characters more difficult to spin. Ugh, this is giving me fits.

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

It'll work itself out. It's always some peripheral detail that slinks out the shadows and says 'oh hai, what about me?' and chows up hours (days) of writing time to figure it out.

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

I'm waiting....

...Still waiting...

0_____0

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

Just smack it upside the head and then do whatever sounds right for the characters. It'll be fine.

Oh - they say it's meant to be fun!

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

Fun? I don't know that word. :(

:D

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

As for LaCE, I think a whole bunch of First Age elves never read the rule book. It's a bit like a very pious and devout Christian presenting a visiting alien with a copy of the 10 Commandments and saying 'These are our rules and we all obey them'. Yeah, right.

Exactly. I never paid much attention to it at all. I didn't like it! I ignore things I dislike--like Elves never getting hungry or cold, crazy telescopic Elven eyesight, or Maedhros hanging from Thangorodhrim for 25 years (get out of here! I settled for two weeks in my story verse--that even seemed a little extreme).

On the splitting up couples question: I try to avoid it, but it is not a principled question for me. Before the couple has clear draw backs, and sailing West is part of canon. It does not seem like a cop-out to me. Killing them would seem more of a cop-out. But a good story is a good story. Whatever works for you and seems natural within the context of the world you are building ought to be workable. Vilification of one of my favorite female characters might not sit well with me, but, even then, I would never say never.

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

I definitely don't want to vilify! Her spouse wouldn't have been easy, I don't think, so I don't blame her for being unhappy. I think what has really thrown me for a loop here is just her complete absence in canon. There's just nothing to go on-- which you'd think would allow me to throw wide the gates, but instead it's tripping me up. I've probably bitten off more than I can chew-- I really don't know what I'm doing any more and it's a mess. All I have to go on is her totally well-adjusted son, which suggests that they were able to make the marriage work insofar as they didn't antagonize each other in front of the kid... but trying to build up an explanation for that absence that doesn't dominate the rest of the story is hard. Which is my own fault-- the idea for the story germinated before I had really thought through the explanation of the wife's absence. Ugh, now I'm just talking myself in circles.

[greatandgrey]

Could there be chance that they agreed to have an open relationship from the beginning? She can still travel west, but there at least would be an understanding that if he wished to take another lover it wouldn't be considered infidelity.

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

I've thought about that, but I'm not sure it's a fit for this particular story. Everyone's too angsty! :)

That's what happens when one jumps all over the broad strokes without stopping to think through the details. :(

[aglarien1.livejournal.com]

Sailing West had to be a viable solution. Certainly those who could not not stand the lives they were living sailed - even Celebrian. there had to be a whole lot of them who sailed to get away from equally horrible situations, like a bad marriage.

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

That's exactly how I feel!! Thanks for the validation! :D

[chaotic-binky.livejournal.com]

Perhaps they could fall out of love? They needn't be angry and there would be no friction, just a simple parting of the ways because the relationship was not working and they both want different things. Later on she could have met someone else and travelled west with them.

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure there was ever love there (at least in this story!verse)-- probably some fondness and hopes that it would develop into something besides a political marriage, but it didn't. That's why I feel like they ought to get a free pass to move on! It's illogical to think that all Elven marriages must be Magically Awesome Because Elves, but then to deny them any sort of exit strategy when it isn't Magically Awesome? ARGH! Not cool!

[spiced-wine.livejournal.com]

I don't follow LACE at all, and none of my Elves are supposed to be monogamous, or stay with a spouse forever. That was just what the Valar ruled. So marriages wound down and became lacking in desire because what they were doing was not natural to the Elves anyhow. Those who did stay together were just like either friends or a kind of business partnership.

In Middle-earth it was different. They could bind themselves to some-one for as long as they wanted (if they wanted children for instance) and then part when one or the other wanted to. (You couldn't hang on to some-one if they wanted to move on, as that was unfair - not saying it didn't happen, but there were deeply ingrained 'rules' against that, as it went against their kind of 'free love' attitude) They were far more sexually free. They also didn't go to the Halls of Mandos, but became Houseless and eventually 'ferthad' (spirit of place) like genius loci, so there was no 'waiting for your spouse to be reborn' etc.

I did have to write about Thranduil's wife, as it's obvious he had one but theirs was an arranged marriage too, just somewhat more important since Oropher and Thranduil and the people originally from Doriath were incomers into the Greenwood, and a lot hung on that. When she died (which I don't cover as it was before I started writing about it) she did follow the call of Mandos rather than refuse it. I'd have to read back to see why she made that decision, but it made sense to her. Thranduil, however, had fallen head over heels for some-one else not long before and felt incredibly guilty about it. Oropher had impressed on a young Thranduil how important his marriage was and Thranduil tied himself into knots and into being utterly faithful while wanting to live how the Elves of the Wood lived. It became a habit that he deeply resented underneath. He'd never been in love until Bainalph grew up and turned out to be everything he had wanted. Now his wife's returned, but not to Thranduil, more because the Greenwood is her home and she was born there, and because she's queen. So that 'resumed' marriage is more about politics than anything else.

So most of the arranged marriages (especially of the First Age and prior) just dissolved after a while, most of them even before the Noldor left, and I don't have to kill any-one off - except the people who were actually killed off in canon. Well, Fingon's wife was awful, though it wasn't her fault, and she's okay now, but she didn't die. He did.

When the Noldor return, they're free to be with who they wish - or at least approach them. Thranduil's people have never had that kind of lifestyle 'enforced' on them and thought it was weird. :)
I know whom I think is together and so they can be without having to marry for duty's sake.

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

I love your universe! It makes so much more sense! I definitely see theirs as a political relationship, but one that Thranduil (being in love with someone else already, and having to part with him for the sake of politics) went into with his eyes open, but she was younger and more naive, and kept hoping that it would become a "true" marriage, and became disillusioned for that reason. It seems completely reasonable to me that she would want out!

Part of my difficulty is trying to pack a digestible back-story into a one-off piece. I feel like I'd be able to develop it better if it were a longer story with a larger scope. But I had the idea for it before I had fleshed out the situation with her in my mind, and now I'm having to sort of retrofit it, which isn't ideal. At least, it's not my preferred option. I prefer to know these things going in, but it was more like, I've got this idea that I like, and this fully-explored relationship between these two people and... oh, shit. There's the Mystery Wife to deal with. 0___0

[spiced-wine.livejournal.com]

Thranduil (being in love with someone else already, and having to part with him for the sake of politics) went into with his eyes open, but she was younger and more naive, and kept hoping that it would become a "true" marriage, and became disillusioned for that reason. It seems completely reasonable to me that she would want out!


I can see that as being perfectly realistic. I was in a relationship like that, not a marriage, but the same 'Maybe he'll fall in love with me' mind-set, and when it became clear that was not going to happen, I got out because it was better for me. Painful, but I was skating on melting ice, and it was pointless. I can quite see another woman doing the same thing.

I've got this idea that I like, and this fully-explored relationship between these two people and... oh, shit. There's the Mystery Wife to deal with. 0___0.

Lol. Yes, and they have to be dealt with because they're like the elephant in the room otherwise. :) I can go the 'Yes, they're all fine, they're just not around' route as they were as much a victim of circumstance as their erstwhile spouses. Thranduil is more of a problem unless his marriage was political. But he's so slashable :D

Anyhow, I like the idea of political marriages among Elves. They have kings and lords so they're obviously dynastic and could be bound by politics and duty as much as Men, and for those who love other men, what other options are there?

I look forward to reading the finished story!

[moetushie]

Why not have them both act like adults and agree to separate? I doubt Galadriel and Celeborn had screaming rows when she went West and he did not.

Tbh, it really sours me on fic when the female character is demonized for the benefit of the slash pairing -- even if I happen to ship the pairing in question.

[moetushie]

Why not have them both act like adults and agree to separate? I doubt Galadriel and Celeborn had screaming rows when she went West and he did not.

Tbh, it really sours me on fic when the female character is demonized for the benefit of the slash paring -- even if I happen to ship the pairing in question.

[lhun-dweller.livejournal.com]

I guess she can't cloister herself in a convent and take vows of silence...?

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

You can see how she ended up... here!

I actually have (sort of) gone the cloister route with one of my other "inconvenient wives." That's such a horrible thing to call them! I really don't bash female characters, even if it sounds like I do!